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HomeComputingMobileInternetGamingElectronicsExtremeDealsHomeComputingMicrosoft hints that DirectX 12 will imitate Mantle, but AMD insists its API has a bright futureMicrosoft hints that DirectX 12 will imitate Mantle, but AMD insists its API has a bright futureBy Joel Hruska on February 27, 2014 at 1:23 pmComment
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Multiple sessions at the upcoming GDC (Game Developers Conference) are teasing the existence of a new, low-level series of APIs coming to both Direct3D and OpenGL. Nvidia has already given several talks on reducing driver overhead in OpenGL (a substantial example of one such presentation is available online), but the input from Microsoft is new.
In fact, as some of you may recall, an AMD executive publicly stated a year ago that there was no “DirectX 12” on the Microsoft roadmap. Microsoft responded to those comments by affirming that it remained committed to evolving the DirectX standard — and then said nothing more on the topic. Then AMD launched Mantle, with significant support from multiple developers and a bevy of games launching this year — and apparently someone at Microsoft decided to pay attention.
Note: Microsoft has not confirmed “DirectX 12” as an actual brand name for the next-generation of DX technology. It’s used here as the most logical version number.
The GDC webpage for one of the DirectX talks states ” You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console. Come learn our plans to deliver.”
Sound familiar?
The Mantle Angle
We’ve spoken to several sources with additional information on the topic who have told us that Microsoft’s interest in developing a new API is a recent phenomenon, and that the new DirectX (likely DirectX 12) will substantially duplicate the capabilities of AMD’s Mantle. The two APIs won’t be identical — Microsoft is doing its own implementation — but the end result, for consumers, should be the same: lower CPU overhead and better scaling in modern titles.
This has already been read in several circles as to be the death knell for AMD’s custom API, but such claims are short-sighted, for multiple reasons. First, there’s the fact that DirectX 12 is almost certainly 12-18 months away. Second — and equally important — there’s the fact that Microsoft has been locking DirectX releases to Windows versions. DirectX 11.1 is only available on Windows 8; DirectX 11.2 is only available on Windows 8.1. Microsoft has every reason to synchronize the launch of DX12 with its next version of Windows — and if it follows its typical MO, that means DirectX 12 will be most likely be a Windows 9 exclusive.
Microsoft, of course, doesn’t have to play its cards that way, but if it does, Mantle may remain relevant as a cross-platform alternative for extending close-to-metal benefits across the gaming stack. Of course, OpenGL may or may not be capable of performing the same tasks in the same time frame — but less is known on that front. Hardware support could also complicate matters — if DirectX 12 closely maps to Mantle, it’s possible that today’s GCN GPUs will still support it. Alternately, if it doesn’t, then Mantle may become the preferred option for ensuring broad backwards compatibility.
And if Mantle is ultimately subsumed by DirectX — so what? When I first talked to AMD about the next-generation API at APU13, the developers candidly told me that the long-term goal was to get Microsoft and the Khronos Group in charge of OpenGL to adopt a Mantle-like architecture. The entire point of Mantle was to spur game development and drive the adoption of a better standard.
AMD has released an official statement on the matter, saying:
Yesterday several articles were published that reported that DirectX and OpenGL are being extended to include closer-to-metal functionality and reduced CPU overhead. AMD supports and celebrates a direction for game development that is aligned with AMD’s vision of lower-level, ‘closer to the metal’ graphics APIs for PC gaming. While industry experts expect this to take some time, developers can immediately leverage efficient API design using Mantle, and AMD is very excited to share the future of our own API with developers at this year’s Game Developers Conference.
Tagged In softwareamdnvidiacpugpuPC gamingdevelopersdirectxMantleopengldirectx 12Share This Article .article {margin:0px !important;}.AR_1 {margin :0 0 20px 0 !important;}.AR_2 {margin:0 0 20px 0;} CommentPost a Comment pelov lov
So Microsoft has basically stated that they may or may not be working on something that has a less amount of overhead in a hypothetical future release that may or may not come to fruition with no insight as to how it works nor what it offers nor what OS/platform it will arrive on?
The only way MS is ever going to release DX12 is by attaching it to a crappy new OS that will also require a monthly subscription to MS Office. And that DX12 will offer about as much as DX11 brought to the table.
The problem here isn’t the lack of development for DX, it’s that it’s being developed (read: held back) by a company who could care less about the PC gaming space and would rather force everyone to their locked ecosystems and consoles.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Joel Hruska
I assume, given Microsoft’s statements, that it *is* working on a new version of DX, but that the new version will almost certainly be tied to a specific version of Windows.
I mean look at this from Microsoft’s perspective. One of the problems with its past strategy has been that DX10 wasn’t really faster (even if it was prettier). DX11 got backported to Vista, so no help there. DX11.1 and DX11.2 didn’t get backported to 7, however.
If Windows 9 + DX12 = 10% faster in games, then Microsoft is going to punch that full throttle.
pelov lov
That highlights MS’s problem in the PC gamer // enthusiast space. They’ve lost a lot of good will because of things like stagnation (DX) or general ignorance and apathy (GFWL). They also refuse to port exclusives to Windows PC, instead favoring their dated consoles every step of the way.
It’s a company that treats a huge chunk of its user base as a proverbial cash cow instead of offering them something worth paying for. I guess that’s pretty much how MS treats Windows in general :P
Joel Hruska
There’s no alternative. I’ll never build a Steambox because that’s a second system with a limited subset of games. Since I game on more than just Steam and I play some titles that wouldn’t be brought to LInux, Gaben would have to offer me 8-10x better performance (or visual quality) in order to convince me to build a Steambox system or adopt that OS.
This is the same reason why Apple is a non-option for me.
Granted, I’m still on W7 — haven’t been tempted by the DX11 enhancements — but the point stands, MS has no competition here.
pelov lov
You can’t fix legacy, but then again you can’t fix legacy.
Legacy is what all of MS is built upon. Legacy is why there is no alternative. Legacy is also why developers have to target MS first and then weigh development costs versus market size with the other OSes.
Ironically, legacy is also why MS has thus far failed in mobile. They haven’t been able to leverage legacy in new devices, and have been trying to hide it and battle its effects — the huge install size of WinRT and the patches pushed and Metro are prime examples.
As much press as Mantle gets, it’s ultimately OpenGL which we should rest our hopes on. As mobile devices become more popular and present a huge new market for developers, hopefully the more we’ll see legacy and DX take a back seat. There’s a lot of money there and Microsoft has little-to-no sway. Yes, it’s OpenGL ES, but we’re seeing full-blown OpenGL compliance as well (nVidia K1, AMD’s SoCs, etc.)
If you’re looking at SteamOS and Debian-based Linux as the alternative, then you’re looking in the wrong direction.
Robert Foy
I agree on most of your points, but the SteamOS/Linux path is not bad, sure it has a ways to convince people that it’s a good platform, but the only reason why it ISN’T is because most people only stick with whatever is on their PC and the other argument of “not enough games on linux”. But Steam is proving that it’s a viable alternative, with a shitload of AAA titles being ported to it down the line.
As far as people’s concerns over the linux learning curve, it’s nothing to set up and run linux now. Ask anyone has Mint 15 about that, Mint 15 sets up smoother and gives more options than Windows ever did, even with Windows 8. You no longer have to be a command line user to use linux, it’s a no brainer now.
pelov lov
I’ve been using Linux for nearly a decade so it’s not me that Steam has to sway but rather the plethora of games that are listed in my Steam library :P
Robert Foy
Well I gotta say that Steam’s linux library has increased quite a bit. And I would like to see some linux support for games I have owned for awhile, but tbh, I am only interested in future releases and current games. I am currently at 187 games on Steam, about 30 of them are now linux-able. That’s a good start considering last year at this time it was maybe 10 if I was lucky.
Benny X
.. but pretty much every PC comes with Windows, and people like to use what everyone else is using. That’s either Windows or OSX. Linux still is not ready for prime-time and will never be, as long as driver support is almost nonexistent.
pelov lov
Driver issues have decreased tremendously over the recent years. The only exceptions would be printers and scanners, I’d say. GPU performance still isn’t as polished as it is on Windows, but definitely getting there.
Strangely, when it comes to drivers and support for legacy and obscure hardware the Linux kernel is actually better than Windows.
Robert Foy
Indeed, and if you want to use Windows just to use a printer or scanner, lol. Who uses those nowadays? Oh, and games do run better in my experience than they do with Windows, especially Metro 2033 and Team Fortress 2 (I get 190+ fps in matches on linux and around 100-140 under windows.).
Robert Foy
What driver support? My games that run on Linux run faster than they do in Windows (at least for nVidia users). 5 years ago your point might have stood. Now? No. Ask ANYONE who has installed Mint 15, I didn’t have to download a single driver. When I was installing it, I was able to get online AS I was installing, you have never had, nor will you ever get to do that with Windows. Unlike the inferior drivers for windows, my onboard LAN card was recognized OUT OF THE BOX without having to download later on. Windows 7 AND 8 didn’t recognize it even though it’s one of the most used LAN drivers in the world. AKA Realtek onboard which is one of the leading manufacturers of LAN onboard, which every single motherboard in existence today has onboard LAN.
Oh, and Mint recognized my 660ti and installed nVidia drivers straight away, show me Windows doing that. It never does. The FUD about Linuz and driver support is old and has no basis for modern hardware.
Joel Hruska
For me, this always boils down to the need to re-learn things. Linux doesn’t interest me as an option for switching because, best-case, I’m looking at relearning a great many things I already know how to do.
Add to the that the fact that I can’t really get away from Windows, since I still work and write about Windows environments, and it’s a non-starter.
But just as a fun thought experiment: If every game I wanted to play ran on Linux, ran 20-30% faster, if SSDs were faster on Linux, if Linux driver support was faster, if the file system was superior — all by about 20% — then I might switch from Windows.
(That’s the same benefit I’d want to see from OS X to switch to that — just to be clear).
valentyn0
stop complaining too much, DX is still the most used and will be in the future for a long time, platform, for the rest of the gaming community.
standard
*couldn’t care less.
Sorry, pet peeve.
Singh1699
Please support Amd, I’m just a college student but I’ve been trying. Simply because, they want to make gaming better. Other companies just come as more greedy than anything.
Benny X
no, they just want to make money. Mantle makes their APUs a better sell. That window is closing fast, though. AMD’s only strength left is their integrated GPU, and that advantage is quickly eroding and will be gone by the end of the year.
Then they only have price to compete on. Seeing as they barely make money as it is, AMD will be history within a couple years.
Ravyu
You just started a flame war out of nothing.
Do a favour and just kill your internet conncection, if you really have nothing to say
valentyn0
U just spouted a big BS, do a favor and return to your cave.
Asad Omar
I support them have amd apu and gpu and my games run great.
Jessie Dixon
Okay Microsoft. Funny thing is Xbox and Sony are both using AMD APUs, and how can you talk shit to the hand that feeding your console? I own a Xbox 360 and Microsoft has pretty much shown me over the years…another re-skinned OS. Remember those 360 updates, guess they were preparing me for Windows 8. Seeing how they got a new head of Xbox Stephen Elop to take over…got me thinking yeah good call..not.
Open GL is easier to use. I think developers will go for the easier one to use. It started as a CAD process and got open ended. Microsoft, if you expect people to work with your stuff, send updates on time. My thing is, you like Mantle and are getting ideas, but don’t rip everything from them. Good thing is you are looking at what to fix.
But I’m looking at alternatives, not really supporting Microsoft like that. They’ve shown me how they feel about gaming. Could really care less.
Here’s my list of OS and system likes:
Android: Easy to use and lotta free apps, plus a clean OS
IOS: Sturdy
Linux: Open Source, and modifiable without having to state it.
Windows 95/98/XP/7
AMD: For changing the game with the first 64bit CPU (2003), and whooping Intel’s ass at the time, forced em to step up.
PS4: Developer friendly (always a plus)
Steam Box: another alternative THAT could work out…(sketchy on that).
Joel Hruska
The Xbox 360 cannot run Windows 8, or anything like it. I’m a bit confused as to what you’re referring to.
Jessie Dixon
No it cannot run Windows 8. I was talking about the tiled screen, it looks similar to Windows 8. No way the Xbox 360 could run Windows 8.
Joel Hruska
Ohh, ok. Now I understand you. Got it. ;)
standard
MS can go fuck themselves.
When was the last time they innovated, rather than sit on their hands until someone kicked them up the arse, then exploit their (dwindling) monopoly to shovel whatever inferior shit they created down everyone’s throat.
Benny X
Their monopoly dwindles while they’ve just had a record quarter..
I don’t think you’re griping loud enough!!
standard
Market share Profits
IKROWNI
This is great news to me. Just another thing consoles lost over pc. Before fanboys ranted “but we can get closer to the metal on consoles” well now that’s just another thing pc has. It’s really looking like the only thing a console provides anymore over a pc is price and size. But since you can basically build a pc for the same price as the console but get much better performance and many more possibilities out of the pc it still wins on price. I’ve also seen quite a few mini-itx builds that are smaller and much better looking than the consoles so that’s really not a win for them either.
Seeing how you can grab a mini-itx pc hook it up to a TV and grab a controller to play your games consoles are completely and totally useless. They only serve the purpose to break up platforms causing the developers more work porting between them. So once the consoles completely die we will get better games/better graphics/cheaper prices/and newer innovation along with a single platform to combine all users into one space. The only downside I can see out of the consoles dying out is the millions of kids that have screwed everyone’s mom coming over to pc.
Benny X
Consoles aren’t dying out, though.
One could argue it’s the consoles that get the better games, in the form of exclusives. PC’s are an afterthought these days. The money is made first on consoles.
Dozerman
I wouldn’t say that. Most people with consoles have a PC already (laptop usually) that can play simple Steam games pretty damn easily. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that PC gaming is still growing incredibly fast (I don’t know if it’s faster than consoles at this point in time- I don’t exactly have numbers sitting in front of me right now), and indie games are playing a big part in that.
Benny X
PC gaming is actually dying out. That is why consoles get the preferential treatment first. A good and recent example of this is GTA V.
There is no reason to go through the Steam hassle. What for? People will just go play on console instead of jump through additional hoops just to play the same game on PC.
RBH
Steam a hassle?
I’m sorry it doesn’t work for you but Steam is an absolute doddle to use. I’m sure if I was blind roaring drunk and paraplegic it would still be easier than purchasing/installing a game.
IKROWNI
Consoles are about to die out. Nintendo is on its deathbed, Sony is selling all there assets to keep from filing bankrupt, and investors and partners with Ms want the Xbox name sold since it’s nothing more than a money sink.
And the consoles don’t get better games. Are you kidding me? Consoles just get more expensive games with more money pumped into advertising them. You get a new call of duty every year and shite resolutions. If I wanted to play games with the same old stories and same old graphics from 7 years ago I would turn on my 360.
Eibet Udlyektwono
I get what you’re saying, but I don’t agree with you. I have been an avid gamer for years and play across multiple systems including PC. I do agree that the PC platform is the optimum choice for premiere quality gaming but that comes at a cost. There are a small percentage of people that have upgraded to the latest and greatest consoles, the PS4, Xbone and WiiU but there are even LESS people that have upgraded their PC’s to current specifications. Most of which are actually running specs less than the Xbone (hard to believe, I know!).
Console gaming will not die for a while. It is easy to get into, easy to operate, and easy to own. PC’s require TLC which a large majority of gamers (casual especially) are not will to invest into.
Back in the day when the cream of the crop for online shooters was taking off, Counter Strike, the most popular game by far out of every shooter ever created was GoldenEye for a home console. Graphically inferior, yet highly regarded in gameplay, fun and convenience.
The home console may be technologically inferior to you and a number of other individuals, but as a whole, the gaming community is actually upgrading their existing hardware by purchasing a next gen console.
Phobos
Exactly, back in the day, pc games that were meant for the pc came first then consoles now it’s the other way around.
Robert Foy
The ONLY reason why Microsoft is even thinking of doing this is because they are finally realizing that they cannot set on their laurels with the XBOX 1 and Windows-gaming. This is the reason why they are failing right now: SteamOS will start to make inroads to gaming in a big way, more companies are jumping on the OpenGL/Linux bandwagon, PS4 is outselling XBONE big time and will continue to outsell it because no one wants an “entertainment center focused on :cable TV:” when they want a GAMING console first and foremost.
But I give them credit if they take gamers moving to other plantforms seriously, because it WILL hurt the bottom line of their Windows monopoly. Thanks to Android and iOS, people are finally seeing that they don’t need Windows to do every day tasks that they do. That is what is going to hurt Microsoft in the long run, not unless they start taking gaming seriously and I don’t mean just the consoles.
Think about it: what does the average PC owner use Windows for that can’t be done on Linux? Office? Most casual users don’t need it, nor do they use Photoshop. And why does the average PC gamers use Windows? Because in the past, if you wanted games, you could only get them on Windows platform. Now that games are being made to run on Mac and Linux, there most likely won’t need to be a reason to even have a Windows install. The only thing I do on Windows is play games, everything else I do just fine on Linux, if not better. With Mantle and OpenGL, DX is no longer the go-to for gaming development. Hell, the PS3 was OpenGL-based. Didn’t hurt them at all.
So, if Microsoft wants to survive long term in the gaming department, and that is a sizable chunk that will start the ship to sink, then they better up their game with the next iteration of Direct X. Because the rest of us no longer give a shit about DX and it’s lack of innovation and are looking elsewhere. OpenGL and the new Mantle got the attention now, and for good reason, because they are INNOVATING and we are getting PROGRESS instead of the DX9 monopoly that games have been under thanks to last generations focusing on consoles.
Benny X
Steam will accomplish about as much as Ouya or Nvidia’s Shield has.
The average PC owner prefers Windows or even OSX over Linux. That’s the way it’s always been, and always will be. The reason is obvious. Windows and OSX both have solid companies behind them, with a proven history, and there isn’t room for 3 players. It’s easy for a company to write drivers for two different OS’s. That covers pretty much all of the computing population, and that’s all that matters.
*also, games are still primarily found first on Windows, and maybe on Mac. Linux is an afterthought at best. Not much money in supporting such a miniscule market segment.
*also, most gamers are happy as long as their game works. They don’t give two hoots about DirectX or OpenGL or Mantle or whatever else. They want it to install properly and run. It’s only the minority population of gamers made up of people like yourself who get so religious about such things.
Robert Foy
And we are also the ones who spend $2000 to build a new PC all of the time, and the only reason they “prefer” Windows and iOS is because they have no choice. If they saw how good Mint 15 was, they wouldn’t care because it can do all of what Windows does, but without having to pay for it. And as far as “proven history” wtf? Windows has only proved that it will innovate if there is COMPETITION from the likes of linux and Apple. And it doesn’t cost much to port to linux if the game was already made with OpenGL, which is THE API used in the vast majority of gaming today. Android? Linux based. Mac? Unix based. PS3/4? Linux based. The only ones who support DX are XBOX and Windows. That’s it. And considering that a large swath of people are moving away from the desktop to mobile, that is REAL bad news for the Windows/DX platform.
Jessie Dixon
Second that motion.
Jessie Dixon
I’ve been like this, the market needs more than one OS to play with. PS4 proved my perceptions wrong and that is a good sign. It’s better to show and prove like ps4 did than talk about the tech. I’m all for being challenged and not one sided. Hell I play with Android more now so I can experiment with the system.
I think open systems and clean operating systems are in. Given how gaming has grown, I think we need more risk taking and innovation.
Paying for exclusives is like them Call of Duty xp points per Doritos bag. Cant spend your way prosperity.
symbolset
AMD and nVidia need to secure the ownership of the software stack to successfully move their hardware to new software platforms. Otherwise they are limited by Microsoft’s declining sphere of Influence and will not survive.
Dozerman
I like AMD’s stance on this. Very “good guy” of them, even if it is all marketing fluff. I think they really never thought Mantle would last very long and just wanted to “unstagnate” the market, so to speak.
fteoOpty64
Mantle is a clever strategy for AMD to give mid to low-end cpu rigs more frames to make games playable. Also, most importantly to help them sell mid-end to high-end GPU cards since it frees up CPU and let the gpu soar with its compute power without bottlenecks on draw-calls/sec. This is a win-win for AMD and their customers and it is the first time to ever happen to the GPU industry.
It exposes the weakness of DirectX in that high-end cards are not performing on mid-range cpu due to DX calls bottlenecking. SO in freeing up this bottleneck, the gpu gets the functions for it to work in time for the framerates it can do. The benchmarks shows the cheapest Core i5 cpu vs 4770K on 290x having almost identical framerates on ultra resolution. Hence, most would say I paid $150 extra to get nothing. If I had put that into the card, I would drum up even higher framerates!!!. Or put that money on a fast SSD and call it a day.
Joel Hruska
The debate over console vs PC gaming is orthogonal to the original topic, but for the record? If you pull the list of total game copies sold on both PC and console — and find a title where the manufacturer themselves includes online sales — PCs are always dwarfed by consoles.
There are only a handful of games on the PC side of the market that stack up against consoles. That doesn’t make consoles ‘better,” in any objective sense (die-hard PC gamer here), but the “money” on the PC side over the past 3-4 years has been significantly made by Facebook games and the like.
The PC market doesn’t drive enough sales in and of itself to keep most franchises afloat.
Jessie Dixon
I miss those Unreal 2004 mods. Ballistic Mod was my thing as well as the user map packs
Phobos
I miss the Unreal franchise, now its plague by CoD and BF games eww.
Jessie Dixon
Battlefield and Call of Duty been around for a while. Battlefield was str8 multiplayer from its beginning, Call Of Duty was about story, the it went to hell when it got Guitar Hero syndrome with a bad assed case of Doritos, brouhaha, and became on trope after another. I was like damn let a black dude lead…
Thing gaming used to take risks, and corporate heads stopped that. Boom Capcom axes Kenji Ifune. Bad sign, so developers are goin crowdsourcing. If it progresses large companies could lose pull.
Here’s what needs to happen: people need not to be so caught up in fanboyism. Plus it makes those who own a Xbox, Playstation, or WII U look bad. In the case of Microsoft, looking at them side ways.
The game’s been in need of a shake up
Jshdajhd Sdjhskadhqw
10% is absolutely NOTHING! I want 50% at very least.
Joel Hruska
And I’d like a pony.
Asad Omar
Looks like they have officially joined up to make our current cards outdated.
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This chart uses a different analysis method than the Raymond James figures, but the conclusions are similar.
Microsoft hints that DirectX 12 will imitate Mantle, but AMD insists its API has a bright future Feb 27 Deals And Coupons HottestLaptopsComputer About ExtremeTechAdvertisingContact ExtremeTechET ForumsTerms of UsePrivacy PolicyZiff DavisJobs
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Time to bust out the masking tape?
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Snippet from the GCHQ/webcam leak
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Kepler
Hubble vs. James Webb Space Telescope, primary mirror size. The JWST will be able to gather a LOT of light.
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See this? This is what “fun” looks like.
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Tagged In automobilescarsautoshybridsnavigationlane departure warningadaptive cruise controlcar reviewsToyotablind spot detectionreviewsSUVssonarToyota HighlanderEntuneShare This Article .article {margin:0px !important;}.AR_1 {margin :0 0 20px 0 !important;}.AR_2 {margin:0 0 20px 0;} CommentPost a Comment billym67